Stan Lee and Roy Thomas: Together Again One Last Time • The Lee – Kirby Debate
Friday, November 23rd, 2018Welcome to Friday’s Mega Comics Group Updates!

A heart warming cartoon which made the rounds on Facebook last week. It’s signed but we could not identify the artist.
The world still mourns the passing of Marvel Comics legend Stan Lee. Stan was 95 years old and had some health issues the past year so it was not a big shock that he passed away. It was more or less expected but not something any of us was looking forward to of course. We had just lost Steve Ditko and Marie Severin a few months before, and Flo Steinberg last year. To those of us who grew up reading these guy’s work and admiring their art, this is a sad time. Jack Kirby, Sol Brodsky, John Buscema, Don Heck, Wally Wood, John Severin, Chic Stone, John Verpoorten, Gil Kane, Frank Giacoia, Mike Esposito, Gene Colan, Ross Andru, Bob Brown and Dan Adkins all passed on years ago. There may be others as well we can’t recall at the moment. There are not many of the original Marvel Bullpen of the ’60’s and ’70’s left. Our generation’s heroes are passing away and an era is coming to an end. 🙁
Roy Thomas and Stan Lee Together Again
Roy Thomas visited Stan Lee on November 10 just 2 days before Stan passed away. Long time Marvel fans will recall Roy was the first full time writer with the Bullpen Stan hired back in 1965. Roy worked on several fillers at first and had long stints on Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos, X-Men, Avengers and Conan. He later wrote nearly every series at one time or another for Marvel and succeeded Stan as the 2nd Editor In Chief over the Marvel line in 1972 once Stan became Publisher.
In an article on the HollwoodReporter.com Roy wrote:
This may be the last photo of Stan taken before he passed on 2 days later. It’s great that old friends Stan and Roy got to visit again one last time.
“I was just with Stan on Saturday. It was arranged a week earlier for me to come from back east. I was told Stan said he didn’t want to see anybody, but when they mentioned my name, he said, “I’d like to see Roy.” Which was very flattering. I was just with him for half an hour, less than 48 hours before he passed away. He was on the sofa, facing the swimming pool, had kind of a view. He was nattily dressed and so forth. He just didn’t have the energy that he had the last time I saw him. He looked frail, but he could get around when he needed to.”
Roy always complimented Stan’s style in his own writing and often ghosted for him on Bullpen Bulletin pages as well as the Spider-Man newspaper comic strips. As Editor-in-Chief Roy maintained the spirit of the Marvel Age of the ’60’s during his tenure. In short he came closer than any of the Chief Editors in doing it like Stan would have. It’s was good to know Roy got to see Stan again before he passed on.
Roy has another article on the HollwoodReporter.com: Roy Thomas on Life at Marvel in the 1960s you might enjoy.
The Marvel Creator Controversy
Depending on just how much you know of the comic book industry history, you may or may not have ever heard of this controversy. For a number of years there has been a debate in fandom concerning how much of the Marvel Universe Stan Lee created and wrote as opposed to how much Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko contributed as well as other Marvel Bullpen members. Average fans would probably logically conclude it was a 50/50 split. However, there are those who say that is not so. Some very devoted Kirby fans say Jack wrote all the stories and Stan just did a little editing and put his name on it. Why would they say that? Because Jack was reported to have said similar things in several fanzines for several years, mainly in the ’80’s. Did Jack actually say these things? The interviewer may have merely exaggerated or else misunderstood what Jack was saying. That had happened on more than one occasion with Jack on various subjects. Jack was known to have an opinion about most things but he also had a strong sense of professionalism, so Jack giving an opinion in private or in what he thought was a private conversation was often different than what he would say publicly. This was fairly common practice in the World War II Generation. There were similar rumblings from fans of Steve Ditko over the years but we are not sure whether Steve ever made similar complaints to those of Jack. Steve Ditko was a very private man and as a rule didn’t give interviews. He did not often like to talk about past work, he was more interested in what was next.
A Good Article On the Subject
Daniel Best is a comics fan, writer, author, historian and public speaker. Daniel is a good friend of Bob Almond of The Inkwell Awards (see the ad to the right of this blog). Bob has also inked a lot of Marvel Comics and others for about the past 20 years. Daniel knows a lot of folks in the comics industry in addition to Bob. He has some great insight into all this he has shared in a great article on his blog regarding the controversy. Here’s a couple excepts:
“The Fantastic Four were the flagship of the Marvel line and clearly both Stan and Jack had a fondness for the characters. They were the first in a long line of super-heroes, and they marked the longest continuous collaboration that the two men had, as they worked on the title for 102 issues, plus a handful of annuals from its inception in 1961 through to 1970, creating a volume of work and characters that is still unmatched today. The characters and concepts that were introduced make up the foundations of the Marvel Universe as we know it – the Silver Surfer, Galactus, The Black Panther, the Inhumans, Adam Warlock and countless others all had their introductions in the Lee/Kirby run. Even so there is still conjecture as to who did what on the title.
“In one corner are those who firmly believe that Stan Lee had a strong hand in the writing and editing of the book. This would also mean that Lee had the controlling say over the direction of the title and Lee also took more than an active hand in the creation of the characters. In the other corner are those who equally believe that Jack Kirby did it all. This means that Kirby wrote, or, at the very least, plotted every issue, suggested dialogue, created all of the characters alone and controlled the direction of the title. While it’s true that there are strong arguments to be had for both sides of the fence, such as the fact that Stan Lee never created characters as strong away from Kirby as he did with him, and Jack Kirby’s dialogue left a bit to be desired without Lee’s editing, the absolute truth may never be known as Kirby and Lee were certainly at odds when it came to giving the other man credit for their efforts, although Lee has been more charitable when it comes to giving Kirby his due than Kirby did for Lee.”
You can read the rest of Daniel’s opinions on the research he has done at his blog: OhDannyBoy.blogspot.com
The Return of Jack Kirbys Original Art
During the late ’70’s through the mid ’80’s the feud heated up as professionals and fans were taking sides. Lawyers were hired by Marvel and by Jack Kirby and a legal battle ensued. Beginning sometime in the ’70’s it became customary for publishers to return the original art of comic book artists after an issue was published. However due to some copyright disputes regarding whether or not Jack retained some of the rights to some of the Marvel characters , Marvels legal department held hostage several hundred pages of Jacks original art. It was important to Jack to get his art back. A nice income could be had from the sale of those original art pages to the relative new original art collectors who began to surface in the ’70’s. Jim Shooter was the Marvel Editor In Chief at this time. He wrote on his blog concerning the return of the art:
Jim Shooter was the Editor In Chief of Marvel from 1978 until 1987.
“So then because he was suing Marvel, the lawyers felt that the artwork couldn’t be returned — it’s complicated, but doing so could tend to support his claims. In fact, they wouldn’t let me return artwork to anyone while the case was pending. Imagine the frustration of guys like Joe Sinnott and the Buscemas.
“The legal sparring went on a long time. Starting, as most lawsuits do, with a period of threats and legal maneuvering, in 1978 the Kirby side began an aggressive legal and PR attack on Marvel that ended (or lessened somewhat) in mid-1986 when the matter was settled. Though it was a complex case about who owned the characters the way it was pitched to the public by their side was that Marvel — and in particular, I wouldn’t give Kirby his art back.
“During this time, I’d run into Jack at conventions; he couldn’t have been nicer to me. If you look at what Jack said from the podium in those days, he’d acknowledge he had a dispute with Marvel, but he’d also say, “We’re trying to work it out.” He was very gracious about it. Some people around him would get pretty vicious. There was one time I was at a show; I’d sit in the back of the room if I ever went to a panel. Jack was on the panel so I went. There were some other people up there, some of the people who kind of gathered around him; some for genuinely noble reasons, some for self-serving reasons. I think it was Gary Groth who worked this crowd into a frenzy, shouting, “If you see anybody from Marvel, go after them with 2x4s!” I’m in the back of the room, and there’s 300 people between me and the door, and I thought, ‘Hmm, this is going to be interesting.’ “
So Jim Shooter was caught in the middle and took heat for something that was not really his fault. He had to do what the Marvel Legal Department told him got do to keep his job. But Jack did finally get his art back as Shooter recounts:
“So Jack, with his lawyer’s help, sent us a letter refusing to accept the artwork back unless he were given credit as sole creator on all the old stuff he and Stan worked on together. He specifically insisted that Stan would get no credit, and that Jack must get credit, or Jack would not accept his artwork back. That just blew my mind. Shortly after that, I met with Jack in San Diego, and I talked with him. I said, “Doesn’t Stan deserve some credit?” Jack said, “Yeah, he does.” And I said, “So you’d be okay if we put ‘Stan and Jack’?” He said yes. I said, “And another thing, Jack, in your letter you insist you created Spider-Man, and I know you developed a version of Spider-Man, but it wasn’t the one that was actually used. The one that was actually used was the one Steve did.” He said, “Yeah, you’re right, that’s his.” Jack was fine with it; he had no problem. So we settled, and he got his artwork back.
“Finally, Kirby got his art back. But to this day, no one has a clue who Jim Galton was or his role in this. Very few people know the people behind the scenes who were calling the shots in this thing. To the average fan, Marvel was Jim Shooter, and why did he do this? I was in a position where, unless I was willing to get out there and badmouth one of our founding fathers, or badmouth the people who were paying my checks, what could I do? I wasn’t willing to talk bad about Jack certainly, and I felt honor-bound to represent Marvel as best I could, even though I disagreed; not with the legality of their stance, but with the intelligence of it. It was just an idiotic position. I kept hoping I could work something out. From my point of view, no one on this planet fought harder for Jack and his interests than me, ever. I’m the most vilified human being in the world when the subject of Jack Kirby comes up, and it wearies me. It really does. Probably no one will believe me, and at this point, so be it. I’m not interested in proving my case. I’m not interested in getting into a debate over it. I’ve said my piece. They can take it or leave it.”
This reckoning of these events does match other articles and books we’ve read of what really happened. There was a struggle over copyright and returning art which then evolved into who should get the credit for the creation of the characters.
Who Created What?
So did Stan create the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man or did Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko create them? There is no way to know exactly. Outside of Stan, Jack and Steve there would only be a few others who would possibly know for sure. Some of those have already passed on as well, so the absolute truth in the matter may never be known. None of us were there so we only have second hand knowledge. It should be noted here many who claim they know, base their belief on second hand knowledge as well, so though their intentions may be honorable, their facts may or may not be completely accurate. It is with this in mind we examine the publicly known reports.
Conclusions
What have we learned? We have examined a few reports of the events which occurred leading up to the birth of the Marvel Age. So who created the Marvel Universe? As Daniel Best wrote there are strong arguments from both camps. Those who are ardent fans of Stan lee take his side while those who adore the work of Jack Kirby maintain he created it all. It’s remindful of some of the great Football Rivalries! Who’s the best? It depends on the fan viewpoint!
Here at MCG we are torn. We admire both men and their work both together and separate. Most we talked to on the subject do tend to agree on one thing; Stan and Jack did their best work together on the Fantastic Four, The Mighty Thor, Captain America and their other varied Marvel masterpieces. The same can be said concerning Stan lee and Steve Ditko. It would seem that this could be the strongest argument. Their best work was on titles with both their names in the credits. So maybe it was closer to a 50/50 split than any of them remember or wanted to admit or some bias fans would concede.
Regardless of whose side you take, who you believe created what, like those football rivalries, let’s keep it all in perspective. These are some of our favorite comics from a bygone era. Let’s be thankful for that and NOT let the argument of who did the most work ruin our enjoyment of the books. That’s fair isn’t it?
(Sources: Wikipedia: Stan Lee, Wikipedia: Jack Kirby, Wikipedia: Jim Shooter, JimShooter.com,Tales to Astonish by Ronin Ro, OhDannyBoy.blogspot.com, The Origins of Marvel Comics by Stan Lee, Son of Origins of Marvel Comics by Stan Lee, Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World’s Greatest Comics by Les Daniels, Marvel Comics: The Untold Story by Sean Howe, Amazing Fantastic Incredible: A Marvelous Memoir by Stan Lee,)
Mark’s Remarks
No Reproach
There is a book, a biography of Jack Kirby, that was written in 2004 by Ronin Ro entitled Tales to Astonish. The book is a biography of Jack Kirby but is it also a chronicle of Jacks relationship with Stan Lee. There are still paperback copies which can be ordered from places like Amazon but there are no digital versions that I’ve found. It’s been a few years since I read it and I’m thinking I need to re-read it. I’ve read so much sometimes I’ve forgotten where I read certain revelations. This book, as I recall, was full of details that clarified things about Jack’s journey I had read before but here the author put a new perspective on it. This was especially true concerning the Marvel years. More on that in a minute.
There are a couple points I want to make here concerning the Great Debate on who actually created the Marvel Universe. Like a lot of what is written above I tend to think that Stan AND Jack created the Fantastic Four regardless of where the split in creativity, ideas and labor really was. Had either of them done the lions share of the work on the titles the results would have been more like some of the other works they did separate from each others influence. I believe the Fantastic Four and the other books Stan and Jack worked on were products of their unique partnership. I believe the same concerning the Amazing Spider-Man and Dr. Strange when those storylines were handled by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. I believe the proof has been there all along right in front of us. Just look at some of the work which was close by. In the case of Spider-Man, look at how the title changed when Steve left and John Romita came on board the strip to do the art. I made a similar observation when I re-read a couple titles Stan and Jack did right before Jack left for DC. Look at and read the first two issues of Amazing Adventures dated August and September 1970. These were the first solo adventures of The Inhumans as Written and Drawn by Jack Kirby. Stan only had Editor credit in these. If you read these issues closely and notice the use of narration, vocabulary and splash page text it is clear Jack did the writing as credited. The writing is more in line with the style he wrote Superman’s Pal Jimmy Olson when he went to DC shortly after these stories were published at Marvel. Now, look at one more: Silver Surfer # 18 which is also cover dated September of 1970 and also featured The Inhumans in continuity with the Amazing Adventures tales. Look at the credits. Stan is credited to have written this one. Read the story and notice the difference in writing style, vocabulary, and narration, it’s all strikingly different and especially noticeable when you read them one after the other. How much more proof do we need?
Some say that just proves Jack wrote it and Stan edited and rewrote the Surfer tale. That could be true, but the Silver Surfer tale is much better paced and has more polish than The Inhumans tales in Amazing Adventures. Let me ask you this: Did Jack do the art? “Why of course he did! That’s his style and the credits say so.” you might well reply. Ah! But did he? Notice those credits again. Jack did the pencils all right, but the inks were by Herb Trimpe on the Silver Surfer and Chic Stone on Amazing Adventures. That’s two different inkers and you will have to admit the finished art has a different look from one title to the other even though done in the same time frame because each inkers style is different. The printed copies were not made from Jack’s pencils. We might say the inkers edited, re-drew and polished Jack’s art in ink. Now, some were more faithful to Jack’s original pencils than others, but that essentially is what inkers have always done. That is also what a writer and editor does in regards to the story. So Jack may have included his suggestions or even a whole script in his margin notes but Stan re-wrote, polished and edited the story. It was no longer PURELY Jack’s no more than the art was PURELY his.
Jack’s pencils for Fantastic Four #61 page 17 panel 4. Here you can see some of Jack’s script in the margin notes. The sketchy numbered word balloons were added by Stan which corresponds to HIS typed script and showed the letterer where to place the words.
So what’s my point? Just this: while we might debate whether it was Stan or Jack that did the most in creating these works there were inkers for the art and letterers for the story, not to mention colorists, that contributed to the finished product. It was a team effort. How it was done or who did exactly what might be splitting hairs when you get right down to it. Now, NO ONE would argue that Stan and Jack really didn’t do much of the real work, but rather the inkers, colorist and letters did most of it. Stan may have used notes or a rough script from the margins of Jack’s pencils but the finished story was polished just like Jacks pencils were polished by inkers. It was all a team effort by Jack and Stan and several others. It started with a rough idea from Stan, Jack polished it and expanded it with his pencils to tell the story. Jack added margin notes to help convey his story to Stan along with suggestions for dialog. Sometimes Stan used Jacks ideas in writing and other times, if Jack got away from Stan’s original premise telling the story, Stan would write it back to the original idea. But all of this was part of the polishing and refining process. Stan would write and rewrite captions and dialog until he felt he had it just right to match Jack’s art. The letterers skillfully put the dialog and captions on the page for the most dramatic effect and best flow along with sound effects. The inkers refined the pencils to get the best clarity and most dynamic impact for the art.
Jack’s pencils INKED by Joe Sinnott for Fantastic Four #61 page 17 panel 4. Notice the details embellished by the inker. Also notice the amount of detail in the word balloons. Jack may have given Stan a little direction with his margin notes but Stan really added a lot on his own as can plainly be seen.
Colorists would add various shades of color to add even more eye popping drama. And when it was all done by the short deadlines they had to meet, most couldn’t remember where a particular idea originated. I guarantee you, by my own experience working with Freazie White, Jr. and others, sometimes we couldn’t remember who suggested what in a story or the creation of characters. Sometimes one of the inkers or the letterer would have a better idea in refining something. Collaborating as a team is like playing Football, everyone has their job and each position refines the process on the way to scoring and eventually winning the game.
Jack should have gotten more credit like maybe plotting or co-writer and he should have been paid for plotting as well as penciling. But back then that was not done very often. Stan wasn’t getting any extra for plotting, editing or art direction either. But he did start giving Jack equal billing in the form of something like “This is a Stan Lee – Jack Kirby Production” right above the other credits. It was Stan that started giving the artists, and inkers and letters and eventually colorists credit at the beginning of the story. Before Stan did it we seldom knew who were the creators on a comic book story. This was revolutionary! Later comic book creators got more rights and even royalties for past work that went into repackaging and reprinting. None of that happened in the ’60’s, it came later. Today comic book creators have more rights, get more credit and get paid more than ever before. Stan got the ball rolling when he first had the idea of giving credit where credit was due.
One last word: Back to the book by Ronin Ro titled Tales To Astonish, I mentioned above. This book has something I have not seen anywhere else concerning Stan and Jack’s relationship. A few months before Jack died, he and Stan saw each other at a party. They had not spoken in about 3 years and they had not parted company on the best of terms the last time they spoke because of these credit and copyright issues. They saw each other at this event and Stan flashed his trademark smile, then the two hugged. Stan shared later Jack said something to him which seemed strange at the time. As Ronin Ro tells it:
“…Jack told Stan sternly, ” ‘You have nothing to reproach yourself about, Stan.’ And it was such…kind of a strange thing for him to say. I was glad to hear it, but didn’t expect it. And that was about it. And then some people came over and interrupted us and he went away and I went away. That was the last time I ever spoke to him.” Stan could not believe what he’d heard. “Maybe deep down,” he thought, “Jack had always felt something positive about him.”
So maybe after it was all said and done Stan and Jack mended the fences, like old friends often do… before the end. If so maybe there is hope for all of us Lee and Kirby and Ditko fans to do likewise, eh?
Onward!
– Mark
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See The New Mega Comics Group Web Gateway!
All this year we have been upgrading various areas of our web site in celebration of our 10 Year Anniversary. Several pages needed a face lift. One of the sections that we most wanted to upgrade was our gateway page. That’s the first page of the site. Those familiar with our pages may not have seen the gateway page all that often. Most of the weekly focus has been here on the blog page for the past years. But if you go to www.megacomicsgroup.com you will see a totally new entrance to our web pages!
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Mega Graphics Print On Demand T-Shirt Shop
We continue to stock our new online merchandise shop. This week we have been adding posters which was one of our favorite items in the old virtual Cafe Press store back when the site began 10 years ago. So in addition to t-shirts, tanks, ladies tanks and tops, mouse pads, clip on buttons, doggy scarfs, pillows, throw pillows, sweat shirts and hoodies which feature your favorite Mega Comics Group art and some nifty mascot cartoons as well, we have posters! Remember, this is a Spreadshirt store with a Create Studio App right on the web site! So you can customize and add your name or catch phrase to the art designs, size them up or place them in any position and almost any place on the item to be printed. As we have said previously, this is part of our MCG Web Site 10th Anniversary Celebration! Keep watching this space each week for more announcements of new items and art as we add them! AND don’t forget the glorious printed anniversary comics we have below!
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CU Next Week!
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